The classic approach to treating depression is to find the problem and fix it, to figure out what went wrong where. Well, what next? What to do when the problem is no more, when the state of zero has come? It is necessary to rise higher, positive psychology teaches, to become happy, to find something worth living for.
At a conference in Paris, a journalist from the French Psychologies met with the founder of positive psychology, Martin Seligman, to ask him about the essence of the method and ways of self-realization.
Psychologies: How did you get a new idea about the tasks of psychology?
Matini Seligman: I worked with depression, melancholy for a long time. When a patient told me, «I want to be happy,» I replied, «You want your depression to go away.» I thought that we should go to «absence» — the absence of suffering. One evening my wife asked me, «Are you happy?» I replied, “What a stupid question! I’m not unhappy.» “Someday you will understand,” my Mandy replied.
And then you had an epiphany thanks to one of your daughters, Nikki…
When Nikki was 6 years old, she gave me insight. She danced in the garden, sang, smelled the roses. And I started yelling at her: “Nikki, go practice!” She returned to the house and said to me: “Do you remember that until I was 5 years old, I whimpered all the time? Have you noticed that I don’t do this anymore?» I replied, «Yes, that’s very good.» “You know, when I was 5 years old, I decided to quit. And this is the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. So since I’ve stopped whining, you can stop grumbling all the time!»
Three things immediately became clear to me: First, I was wrong in my upbringing. My real job as a parent was not to pick on Nikki, but to show her what her talents were and encourage her. Secondly, Nikki was right — I was a grumbler. And I was proud of it! All my success has been based on the ability to notice what is going wrong.
My role in psychology is to say, «Let’s see what’s out there, beyond, beyond all this.»
Maybe I can reverse this gift and see what goes well? And third, I was elected president of the American Psychological Association. And the whole psychology was based on the idea of correcting mistakes. It did not make our life more pleasant, but paralyzed it.
Did your thinking about positive psychology start from that moment?
I studied Freud, but I thought that his conclusions were too hasty, not well founded. I then studied with Aaron Beck at university and became fascinated with his concept of cognitive therapy.
In cognitive methods, there are three theories about depression: a depressed person believes the world is bad; he thinks he has neither strength nor talent; and he is convinced that the future is hopeless. Positive psychology looks at the situation like this: “Aha! There is no hope in the future. What would you personally like to contribute to the future?” Then we build on what the patient imagines.
One of the foundations of positive psychology is experimentation…
For me, positive psychology is a science. All her theories first go through the stage of experiments. So I think it’s a really responsible method of therapy. Only if the tests give satisfactory results, the appropriate techniques are applied in practice.
But for some of us, it’s hard to look at life positively…
I spent my first years of medical practice dealing with the worst: drugs, depression, suicide. My role in psychology is to say, «Let’s see what’s out there, beyond, beyond all this.» In my opinion, if we keep pointing the finger at what is going wrong, it will lead us not to the future, but to zero. What is beyond zero? That is what we need to find. Learn how to make sense.
And how to give meaning, in your opinion?
I grew up after World War II, in an unstable world. Of course, we are still experiencing problems today, but these are not deadly difficulties, not those that cannot be resolved. My answer: the meaning is in human well-being. This is the key to everything. And that’s what positive psychology does.
We can choose to live a peaceful life, be happy, make commitments, have good relationships with each other, we can choose to give meaning to life. That is what is beyond zero, from my point of view. This is what the life of humanity should be like when difficulties and dramas are overcome.
What are you currently working on?
I am currently working on the Default Brain Network (BRN), that is, I am researching what the brain does when it is at rest (in the waking state, but does not solve specific tasks. — Approx. ed.). This brain circuit is active even when you are not doing anything — it is associated with self-observation, memories, ideas about yourself in the future. All this happens when you dream or when you ask the patient to imagine his future. This is a significant part of positive psychology.
You talk about three actions that are important for everyone: creating pleasant emotions, doing what satisfies, and transcending oneself by working for a common cause …
This is true, because positive psychology is partly based on relationships with other people.
How does positive psychology transform social bonds?
Here is an example. My wife, Mandy, who does a lot of photography, won the first prize from Black and White magazine. What do you think I should say to Mandy?
Say «Bravo»?
That’s what I would have done before. This is typical of passive-constructive relationships. But that would have no effect on our connection. I’ve been training young sergeants in the army and I’ve asked them the same question, and their response was of the active-deconstructive type: «Do you know that we’re going to have to pay more taxes because of this prize?» It kills communication. There is also a passive-destructive reaction: «What’s for dinner?»
These are not very helpful reactions.
What benefits is an active-constructive relationship. When Mandy got a call from the editor-in-chief, I asked her, “What did he say about the merits of your photography? You competed with professionals, so you have special skills. Maybe you can teach them to our children?”
Positive psychotherapy works well. It allows the patient to rely on their resources and look to the future.
And then we had a long conversation instead of banal congratulations. By doing so, we feel better. It is not psychoanalysis or medicine that allows us to manifest and develop these skills. Do an experiment with your husband or wife. This is something incomparably more than just personal development.
What do you think of mindfulness meditation?
I have been meditating for 20 years. This is good practice for mental health. But it’s not particularly effective. I recommend meditation for patients with anxiety or high blood pressure, but not for those with depression, because meditation lowers energy levels.
Is positive psychology effective for severe mental trauma?
Studies of post-traumatic stress indicate that any treatment is ineffective. Judging by what we see in the military, positive psychology is effective as a preventative tool, especially for soldiers who are sent to hot spots. But after their return, everything is complicated. I don’t think any form of psychology can cure PTSD. Positive psychology is not a panacea.
What about depression?
I think there are three effective types of treatment: cognitive approaches in psychotherapy, interpersonal approaches, and medications. I must say that positive psychotherapy works well. It allows the patient to draw on their resources and look to the future.